Aminatou Sow on redefining ‘home’ in the age of the internet

In 2016, we all live on the internet to some extent, but most of us are not quite as good as we’d probably like to be at managing our digital selves. Then again, most of us are not Aminatou Sow, digital strategist and co-host of the popular podcast Call Your Girlfriend.

As recently as a few years ago, if you were to spend an entire day around the house it could reasonably be considered a sign that something was seriously wrong. Now, it probably just means that you got caught up with reading, watching the latest hit television shows, and listening to podcasts, all while maintaining correspondences with a variety of people across several platforms.

Aminatou sat down with us this week on The Curbed Appeal for a wide-ranging conversation that includes what it means to successfully make a home online, how she’s—less surely—made a home in real life (she just got a new couch, and it was something of an ordeal), and why San Francisco isn’t a real city.

Read the interview—and listen to the full episode—below.

Jeremiah:

Today on the podcast we're talking to Aminatou Sow, digital strategist and the co-host of the podcast Call Your Girlfriend.

Asad:

Amina has a great, vibrant, robust life on the internet and we wanted to just chat with her about what it's like to make a home online and the digital spaces she uses everyday.

Jeremiah:

We all live on the internet to a certain extent and Amina, more than most, is a professional in that.

Asad:

Yeah, she is online life goals, so stick around. All right, so this is how we start with every guest. I'm going to let Jeremiah take it away.

Jeremiah:

This our question: When you're at a cocktail party, how do you describe what you do? I guess we just go, do you go to cocktail parties?

Aminatou:

Yeah, I'm like, who's going to cocktail parties? First of all, what is wrong with [laughs] ... How old are you?

Jeremiah:

The basic premise of our podcast is that we assume that everyone goes to cocktail parties.

Aminatou:

When I go to cocktail parties, never, you know it's funny I'm in job transition right now. I tell people that I consult and I host podcasts. That's what I do.

Asad:

All right.

Jeremiah:

That's straightforward enough.

Asad:

That's reasonable. Do you people, do they inquire further or do people just nod and smile as people do at cocktail parties?

Aminatou:

Yeah, I think it's that what do you do question is actually really funny because it's not really a question that people ask you in California. It's a very east coast thing, I've noticed. I used to live in D.C. for a long time and in D.C. it's literally the only thing people care about. They're like, "What do you do? Where do you work?" In New York that's also true. I don't know, in California people are like, "How are you? How's your soul?"

Asad:

Oh my goodness. How is your soul is such an intense ...

Aminatou:

"What crystals are you into?"

Jeremiah:

At the smoothie parties, or the juice parties.

Aminatou:

Exactly. Cocktail parties, I'm like, what?

Asad:

We'll have to talk about crystals later. I'm curious.

Aminatou:

I'm really into crystals right now.

Asad:

All right, we'll get there. We'll get there.

Jeremiah:

I feel like with your job in particular, how do you describe to older relatives what you do?

Aminatou:

That's how I describe it to them.

Jeremiah:

Just computers. I work in computers.

Aminatou:

I'm like, "I work in computers." Yeah, I feel like my family never cared about what I did. They were just like, "Are you paying your bills? Is everything okay?" My dad was just like, "What a failure." Then when I started working at Google he still didn't know what I was doing, but he was like, "You work at a company I recognize."

Asad:

Right, which is what matters to parents.

Aminatou:

Especially to immigrant parents, you know what I'm saying? He's just like, "Oh, they make products I know."

Jeremiah:

Did he think you could find him information more easily, like get it straight from the Google?

Aminatou:

Oh my god. The number of maps question or even- ... It's like my father's had email for fifteen years now. God bless him, still doesn't know how to send an attachment.

Asad:

Look, attachments are hard. Let's be real.

Aminatou:

Oh my god. Please don't perpetrate this.

Jeremiah:

It's not intuitive that a paperclip would mean attachment. I mean, I guess it makes sense.

Aminatou:

It's been fifteen years of having this conversation with my dad. When he calls I'm like, "Are you calling to tell me that you love me or you're proud of me, or do you need to send an attachment?"

Asad:

To ask me how to attach a photo.

Aminatou:

Attachments it is.

Asad:

Eight point five times out of ten, probably attachments.

Aminatou:

Oh, yeah. He's just like, "A company I recognize." That's basically ...

Asad:

That's legit.

Jeremiah:

Yeah.

Aminatou:

Yeah.

Asad:

All right, so Curbed's tagline, as I'm sure you already know is, "Love where you live." When we think about you we think about someone who really lives on the internet. We wondered if you have parts of the internet that are different rooms and serve different functions? Like, Twitter for this, Instagram for that. How do you make a life on the internet as someone who is also working on the internet? Maybe you want more separation than there is, but you seem to live a really healthy, robust life on the internet. I'm really curious about that.

Aminatou:

Hey, thank you. That is very kind of you to say. I don't know, my relationship with the internet, that sounds so ominous. The internet, capital I.

Asad:

Yeah, exactly.

Aminatou:

Thanks, iOS. I don't know, it's changed a lot. I think that probably earlier in my career I was really concerned about a huge separation. I was like, "Here's what I do for work." I'm inherently, actually, a very private person. It was really hard for me to put myself out there, but I really love the internet, I love being there. I sound like such a goober.

Aminatou:

I don't know, it's like as I've gotten older, as I've gotten mature there are just parts, there are parts of my life I'm okay with sharing publicly. That also comes with the caveat that it's very well edited, right? It's like people don't realize that it's like the internet is just like social theater.

Asad:

One hundred percent.

Aminatou:

It's like one big mirage. People who are assholes online, I'm always like, "It's so easy to be your best self here."

Asad:

Right, and you ruined it.

Aminatou:

Exactly, and you ruined it. Save that for your family friends, people who care. Here, you can be anybody who you want to be. I don't know, what am I really into right now? I really like Instagram in general as a place to show what you're up to. Also for me a lot of it is documenting a lot of the places that I've been and my friends and the people and the things that I care about. Also it's just fun to see what everybody else is up to in that regard and who are good picture takers and who are terrible picture takers. It's so shocking sometimes. I'm like, "My god. They created a square for you. Why can't you do compositions? This is insane." I don't know. I like that. I really still like reading online. RIP Google Reader.

Asad:

Yes, RIP Google Reader.

Aminatou:

I feel like that was my favorite corner of the internet, period.

Asad:

Would you say that was your library area of your internet home?

Jeremiah:

Study.

Aminatou:

No, that was like my, I don't know, that was my hearth. It was real. I think I got to rediscover a lot of my friends after college that way. It was like, "Here are the things that we read, and here are the things that we care about." We had our own language and our own everything. Then, they took it away from us.

Asad:

They did.

Aminatou:

I don't know that I've fully recovered.

Jeremiah:

It's like when a wing of your house gets demolished.

Aminatou:

Right, and you're like, ...

Jeremiah:

"What, what happened?"

Asad:

In the night.

Aminatou:

You're like, "I don't have a bathroom anymore. What do we do here now?" Hopefully that's not happening to anyone.

Asad:

Yeah, god I hope we're not laughing at someone's weird contractor issues. Spaces on the internet change so often and I remember Snapchat emerging and my sixteen year old sister being like, "Pay attention to this thing. It's awesome." I was like, "Really, am I ever going to use this?" Now I'm addicted to Snapchat.

Jeremiah:

I was going to ask if Snapchat was gone yet. I feel like I'm just waiting it out.

Aminatou:

You know the thing about Snapchat that I find interesting and I think the reason it gives people like us anxiety is that one, it actually confronts you with the fact that you're getting older and no longer relevant really quickly. In every way that you used to make fun of your parents for not knowing how to print stuff.

Jeremiah:

Attach things to emails.

Aminatou:

Attach things to emails.

Asad:

Yes, good call back, thank you.

Aminatou:

Attach things to emails. I don't know. I watch the fifteen year olds I interact with and how quick they are with the medium and it's perfect. I think, too, for our generation we're so obsessed with cataloging and making things permanent and just holding onto things. We were never fully digital people. The kids don't care. They're just like, I made this thing and it's okay to just release it into the ether. I never have to see that picture again, or hold onto this moment.

Asad:

That gives me mild anxiety.

Jeremiah:

Yeah, me too. You're completely right.

Aminatou:

I think that's really what the difference is. The kids just care a little less about digital permanence. I think that there's something to learn there.

Jeremiah:

Yeah, we have these catalogs of thousands of Tweets and Instagram posts that we don't, aren't going to go back through.

Aminatou:

I started deleting my Tweets. It makes me feel so happy. It's like you just delete all of it and then you start over.

Asad:

Yeah, you're cleaning house. Deleting old Tweets, it's like spring cleaning for your internet life.

Aminatou:

That's right. Mary Kondo your life.

Asad:

Oh goodness. Are you someone who, have you tidied up?

Aminatou:

Yo. I invented Kondo-ing. Here's the thing, I grew up traveling a lot and my parents, we moved continents often. My parents were diplomats. Just this idea of holding onto stuff was just not realistic.

Asad:

I mean, you just, right.

Aminatou:

Yeah, it's like my mom gave everybody a shoe box and it's like, "All your memories must fit in here." You figure that out for yourself. I'm just somebody who needs to be mobile. I remember when I was graduating college it really stressed me out that when I moved to America for college I came with a backpack and a tiny suitcase. Now I own a house worth of stuff.

Asad:

Exactly.

Aminatou:

I sold all of it which looking back on it now not smart because I had no money and I should have probably hung onto my stuff. I sold all of it including my clothes because I need to be able to go whenever. I grew up with not a lot, and I don't like accumulating things. To me that's all it is. It's just things. For how many times I've tidied up, I've reaccumulated that stuff, I've gotten rid of it. For my personality at least it is not, I don't feel like my best self when I'm tied down somewhere or when I have too much stuff.

Asad:

You are based in San Francisco, technically?

Aminatou:

Yes. I pay rent in San Francisco.

Asad:

What is the balance between being in San Francisco and then not being there, traveling for work?

Aminatou:

Right now it's like I don't like San Francisco so I will take any opportunity to get on a plane.

Asad:

Okay, you casually threw down a gauntlet and then you stepped aside.

Aminatou:

I didn't step aside. I'm just like, San Francisco sucks.

Asad:

Wait, why? Why don't you like San Francisco, in brief, if you could condense it?

Aminatou:

It's not a real city. That's the one problem.

Asad:

My jaw just dropped.

Aminatou:

Listen, I have lived many places in the world including war torn, crisis ridden places and San Francisco still sucks.

Jeremiah:

Wow.

Aminatou:

I don't know.

Asad:

All right, you heard it here first.

Aminatou:

You heard it here on Curbed. Honestly, here's the thing. I think that everybody has their own city vibe and whatever it is they're looking for. For me San Francisco's a little too small, it's a little too provincial. There is a lack of diversity that is just striking and creepy.

Asad:

Yes, that is something I have noticed traveling there.

Aminatou:

Public transportation is awful. I'm just like, can you call yourself a world class city if you don't have public transportation that works? I don't think so. It's just a combination of a lot of things. I have lived in predominately white cities, actually, almost my entire life. There is something about San Francisco I cannot shake. It's like I roll deep in white people, but for the first time in my life I'm terrified to be the only person of color where I live. That doesn't make me feel good, and it doesn't encourage me to participate in civic life where I live. It's like where I think about where all of our tax money is going and there's no public art and there's no programs that I really support, that makes me sad.

Asad:

Yeah, those are very legitimate reasons not to care for a city.

Aminatou:

I am a technology worker so I realize that I am part of the problem. At the same time it's like, it is crazy to work in the industry that I work in, and get paid the salary that I get paid and look at the city that I live in and be like, I can barely make it here. What about the other people who used to live here?

Asad:

As somebody who's only visited San Francisco I definitely felt that segregation in the city really strongly. I mean, I was visiting friends from college who are white, so we went to their favorite restaurants and their favorite gay bars. I mean, it just is really shocking to me how ...

Aminatou:

I mean, it's not even segregation. Segregation implies that there's a part where an other lives.

Asad:

Yes, talk about it.

Aminatou:

The others just don't live there anymore.

Asad:

Just not there.

Aminatou:

It's just a very homogeneous ... Honestly, it is creepy. I've never experienced anything like that. My family's home in Belgium when we moved in we were the black first family, the first black family to live on that block. That experience felt less alienating than what I'm living now. That makes me sad.

Asad:

What was it like to move around a ton as a kid and only have a shoe box for your memories?

Aminatou:

For me it was great. It's like you're a kid and you don't know what's going on. I think it built a lot of resiliency for me and just my personality was really well suited to that. I have two younger siblings. For one of them, that was not the same experience which I'm only now realizing this in adult life. I'm just like, "What do you mean this was hard for you?" It's like on one hand there's nothing that I'm super nostalgic about. The only thing that annoys me is that whenever I get locked out of my bank or whatever and they're like, "What street did you grow up on?" I'm like, "Ahh! I don't know how to answer it for this." I don't know.

Asad:

That's a terrible security question for you.

Aminatou:

Exactly. It's like, yeah, the security questions always bring me back to the, "I had kind of an unusual childhood." I don't know. I think I appreciate the pros of that more than some of the cons. I think that it's just made me a very capable adult in the end and someone who's really flexible. Those are things that I value a lot.

Jeremiah:

You're traveling a lot for work. Are you staying ...

Aminatou:

For work, for fun, for weddings. Everybody's getting married again. Oh my god.

Jeremiah:

Just whenever possible.

Asad:

Truly everyone.

Aminatou:

Yeah, but I thought that all my friends had already gotten married.

Asad:

They're just doing it again.

Aminatou:

Then they're doing it again. I know, and I've gone to a couple second weddings and I'm like, "This is interesting."

Asad:

You've entered second wedding territory?

Aminatou:

I have fully entered second wedding territory.

Asad:

Jeremiah, have you been to any second weddings, yet?

Jeremiah:

I've been to two first weddings. I've never been to second weddings.

Aminatou:

Jeremiah's like, "I know no one because I've alienated everyone with my tweets."

Jeremiah:

Yup.

Asad:

Something that you said on the Mash-Up Americans podcast was that you've been putting up mezuzah, mezuzot I think is the plural.

Aminatou:

What?

Asad:

Do you know?

Jeremiah:

No, but I believe you.

Aminatou:

There's a plural of mezuzah?

Asad:

I looked it up, I believe it is, I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right, but I believe it is mezuzot.

Aminatou:

I love that it when black people ...

Asad:

Someone will say it should be that.

Aminatou:

I love it when black people talk about Judaism like we know what's going on.

Asad:

Yeah, I don't know. I was raised Muslim. I have no idea.

Aminatou:

Me too.

Asad:

Yeah, me and you both. We're like the wrong people to ask. That was a nice story and I hope you will tell it again.

Aminatou:

Yeah, it's a friend. One of my friend's mom's. I'm like, what is the appropriate construction of that sentence? One of my friend's mom's who is Jewish and just fantastic. My mother passed away when I was in college, so she's the person who checks in on me, and she's like, "Are you eating? What's going on? Who's breaking your heart? Who can I kill for you?" She is like that.

Asad:

Great to have that person.

Aminatou:

You need that person. She gave me a mezuzah because I've also been living alone for a really long time and I think that that's a thing that was a huge point of concern for her. It was her own way of how can I bring comfort to you and watch over you? She gave me a mezuzah and I put it up in my doorway.

Asad:

Will you describe what it is for people who might not know?

Aminatou:

A mezuzah is ... I feel like I'm going to butcher it. It is a Jewish item containing a prayer, I believe, that you put in your doorway for protections and blessing, like, "This house is blessed" kind of situation. I thought that was really cool. My family is Muslim and they're very religious. I personally am not religious. There's something about spiritual things that still, obviously, have a huge draw for me. I have the mezuzah in my house and I have a Quran that's from my family. The Quran is supposed to go on the highest point of my house. I put that on a shelf. That's when I feel I've moved in. That and I'll sage my house and listen to Rihanna and I feel like I fully live there.

Asad:

Yes, what a great sage ceremony.

Aminatou:

It's like a lot of heathen stuff is happening there, but it's like the comforts that you grew up with, so that's it.

Jeremiah:

Is that what it takes for a place to feel like home to you? I mean, are you okay with bare furnishings if you're moving around a lot?

Aminatou:

For me it's like if I set up my bed then I live there. Everything else I can figure out. I bought my first adult couch two years ago and it was a nine month ordeal because it took me six months to decide what I wanted.

Asad:

It's hard to buy a couch.

Aminatou:

It was crazy. I was like, "This couch says everything about my identity. What am I going to do?" It was the first adult couch I bought. Everything else it was always donated or somebody else's stuff. Then it turns out that when you order a couch it takes them three months to send it to you.

Asad:

Especially if it's like a custom upholstery situation.

Aminatou:

Totally. I agonized about it for too long and it was literally nine months to get it. Now it's like if my couch is in my house and my bed is set up, I live there and I'll figure the rest out.

Jeremiah:

You move between the couch and the bed for variety.

Aminatou:

Exactly.

Jeremiah:

Spend one day on the couch, the next day on the bed.

Asad:

Yeah, what is this couch like, out of curiosity?

Aminatou:

Yo, there's nothing fancy about it. There's really nothing fancy about it.

Asad:

That sounds great.

Aminatou:

It is just a West Elm brown leather couch.

Asad:

There's nothing fancy about a brown leather couch?

Aminatou:

I mean, sure, but it took me a long time to commit to leather.

Asad:

That's real.

Aminatou:

It's like how do you turn the bachelor pad item into the bachelorette pad item? It also means I don't want babies on this. I don't have pets.

Asad:

Right. This is for me.

Aminatou:

This is for me.

Jeremiah:

Speaking of things that you love about Bloop.

Aminatou:

Oh my god, yes.

Asad:

Let's talk about it.

Aminatou:

Let's talk about Bloop.

Asad:

There were only two installments and my soul is so thirsty for another.

Aminatou:

I believe there have been three installments of Bloop.

Jeremiah:

Whoa.

Aminatou:

Bloop is this joint newsletter project that I do with my friend Jenna Wortham who is great. She co-hosts a podcast called Still Processing. You should check it out. Yeah, it's basically if Goop was written for and by black women.

Asad:

Great. Basically the ideal inversion of the Goop.

Aminatou:

Totally. I mean, it's not to shade Goop. I love Goop. I buy me some Goop, but also Goop needs some flavor. It was like, who doesn't love to shop?

Jeremiah:

When Asad showed it to me I thought it was going to be making fun of Goop because everybody makes fun of Gwyneth. I was reading, I was just like, "Oh, this is serious."

Asad:

It is an appreciation of and expanding on, you know?

Aminatou:

I appreciate Gwyneth Paltrow. I think she has done a lot for the culture. She is fabulous.

Asad:

It's true. One of the things that you, a spouse in Bloop related to the home space is dressing your bed seasonally.

Aminatou:

Yes, absolutely.

Asad:

You do this? You are adamant about this?

Aminatou:

Yes, I'm adamant about it because you sweat differently through seasons.

Asad:

It's true.

Aminatou:

People are so foolish. Also, everybody, people just don't research fabrics a lot.

Asad:

No, they don't.

Aminatou:

I'm a natural fibers snob.

Jeremiah:

It's true.

Aminatou:

it's part of treating yourself right is also just sleeping right, eating right. Doing all of these things. I think that dressing your bed seasonally is really important. You've got to look into different kind of fabrics and you'll be much happier instead of just always hot all the time.

Asad:

Right. I mean, do you have a place where you shop for your, like a go to place to get your seasonal bedding?

Aminatou:

Not really. I'm a very promiscuous shopper.

Asad:

As it should be.

Aminatou:

It's like who is having a good deal, and who looks good right now.

Jeremiah:

Wait, is this, are you buying new sheets every season, or do you have a rotation of sheets?

Aminatou:

No, I have a rotation of sheets.

Asad:

Jeremiah really needs you to break it down.

Jeremiah:

I got confused by Asad's question.

Aminatou:

Do you like spring/summer 2017? This is what it's going to look like ...

Jeremiah:

Then just throw them out.

Aminatou:

... Fall/winter 2018. No. Also, part of this is that in my house growing up we changed our sheets every Tuesday. I don't know why my mom picked Tuesday because it's not a convenient day.

Jeremiah:

Let's do these activities.

Asad:

You've got homework. You've got stuff to do.

Aminatou:

Yeah, you've got homework. Yeah, and Momma Sow did not care. It's like every Tuesday we changed our sheets. Even when I moved away and I went to college and I live on my own it's a thing that I still do. Part of it's like if you're going to be changing your sheets that often anyway, which everybody should.

Jeremiah:

Yeah, definitely.

Aminatou:

People are sweating in here. I don't know. I make my bed every day.

Asad:

All right, well we want to transition to our thunder round.

Aminatou:

Oh my god, that's sounds so intense.

Asad:

Which we call it that ... You explain it best.

Jeremiah:

It's like a lightning round, but slower. Thunder's a little slower than lightning.

Aminatou:

Oh yeah, thunder.

Jeremiah:

It's not going to strike you. It'll roll over.

Aminatou:

Okay.

Jeremiah:

Here we go. What's the longest you could go without a phone?

Aminatou:

I could go a couple days without a phone. I've done it. I've done a week.

Asad:

You've done it on purpose, or by accident?

Aminatou:

On accident. I also usually I turn off my phone a lot on weekends.

Asad:

That sounds healthy.

Aminatou:

Yeah, I just turn it off. Yeah. On accident I have gone three weeks without a phone. It's like the first couple days are hard and then you're like, "Oh, nobody can reach me. This is great."

Jeremiah:

I would be scared to leave my apartment. Like, what if I got lost?

Aminatou:

I mean, you will get lost. You'll get lost, you'll talk to strangers.

Jeremiah:

I would get lost on the way to the train from, yeah.

Aminatou:

One hundred percent you'll talk to strangers. You'll do the phantom check your phone even though it's broken. Then you get used to it. I don't know. Seems okay.

Asad:

All right, so you'd be okay.

Jeremiah:

That's kind of inspiring. We could all do it if we needed to.

Aminatou:

Yeah, I mean, I hope.

Asad:

Exactly.

Aminatou:

That would be amazing.

Jeremiah:

How many things in your refrigerator should you throw out either because they've gone bad or you're never going to eat them?

Aminatou:

Nothing.

Jeremiah:

Nice.

Aminatou:

Everything in my fridge serves a purpose. I'm also slightly OCD so nothing is spoiling in there. It's like maybe the most European thing about me because we just grew up, it's like there were five of us and we grew up in a tiny house. You go to the grocery store every day you have to cook. There's nothing crazy in there.

Asad:

That's great to hear.

Jeremiah:

I'm impressed.

Asad:

I'm buoyed by that because I'm also crazy OCD about my fridge. I clean it regularly.

Aminatou:

All the time.

Asad:

If you just do it all the time you don't have to do a big one.

Aminatou:

I don't like it when the fridge is full. You know whenever on Cribs they open the fridge and it's you could feed all of America in this fridge and they're so proud. I'm like, "Why does anybody need this much La Croix in their fridge? This is madness?"

Asad:

Are you watching Cribs reruns, by the way?

Aminatou:

Sometimes.

Asad:

Those memories sound fresh.

Aminatou:

I go back to some of my favorites. Mariah Carey is legendary.

Asad:

Legend.

Aminatou:

Legendary. Then when Cribs started branching out into European people I was like, "These people don't have as much money as Mariah Carey." I remember the Boy George one and it was like ...

Asad:

I haven't see that one.

Aminatou:

I'm like, "I could live here. What's up with this?"

Asad:

Not impressed.

Aminatou:

Thoroughly not impressed. Yeah. Sometimes I go back and rewatch them.

Asad:

Oh god, Cribs. Let's pour one out for Cribs.

Aminatou:

I know. Let's bring Cribs back.

Asad:

There was a rumor that it was coming back, and I don't know what ever happened with that.

Aminatou:

People are like, "You can't come to my house anymore."

Asad:

Exactly. The Patti LaBelle episode still is one of my favorites. If you haven't watched that listeners ...

Aminatou:

You're a fool.

Asad:

... do yourself a favor, get on it.

Aminatou:

Oh my god, it's so good.

Asad:

If people want to hear more from you, where can they find you and all of your rooms in your internet home?

Aminatou:

Oh my god, you can find me in many places on the internet. You can find me on Twitter @Aminatou, A-M-I-N-A-T-O-U. Same place on Instagram. You can listen to my podcast, Call Your Girlfriend.

Asad:

Yes, please listen to it. If you're not listening to it, again, get yourself together. You need to watch the Patti LaBelle episode of Cribs, and you need to listen to Call Your Girlfriend.

Aminatou:

You need to buy a couch.

Asad:

Right.

Aminatou:

Yes, all of those things.

Jeremiah:

A good one.

Aminatou:

Good luck.

Asad:

Exactly.

Aminatou:

Thanks so much for having me.

Asad:

Thanks for coming in. It was so great to chat with you. Really appreciate it.

Subscribe on iTunes | Listen on Soundcloud | Check out other episodes