The 2016 presidential election was momentous for all sorts of reasons. Here’s one reason less likely to cause strife at your family’s Thanksgiving dinner this year: For the first time in 70 years, presidential candidates from both the Republican and Democratic parties held their election night events in New York City.
But while it had been quite some time since the City That Never Sleeps captured the national spotlight in this way, New York has a long, wild, wonderfully weird history when it comes to U.S. presidents. Greg Young, a co-host of Bowery Boys podcast, sat down with the Curbed Appeal in the show’s second season finale to give us the details.
Alexander Hamilton fans, there’s something here for you. Delight in the macabre? You’re in luck. Just generally love New York City and want to know its secrets? Young is here for you. Take a listen—or read an interview transcript in full—below. And what to learn more about the Bowery Boys and their new book The Bowery Boys: Adventures In Old New York, head on over to Curbed NY.
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Zoe Rosenberg: I'm Zoe Rosenberg.
Asad Syrkett: And I'm Asad Syrkett.
Zoe: And you're listening to The Appeal, the Curbed podcast.
Asad: Today, the day after a momentous election—which I think is a diplomatic and generous adjective to use to describe everything that's happened in the last bit of time—
Asad: —we've decided to have our final episode of this season of The Curbed Appeal be about American history.
Zoe: Today's guest is Greg Young. Greg is one half of The Bowery Boys, which is not the 19th century street gang, it is the podcast about New York City history. Greg has joined us to talk about places in New York where major moments of US presidential history have played out.
Asad: So stay tuned. Hello.
Greg Young: Hello, how are you?
Asad: Super happy to have you here.
Greg: Thanks for the invite. I'm sorry we couldn't both be here but Tom was ... He's out of town today and again he's editing the show which is coming out tomorrow night.
Zoe: Ooh and what's this one on?
Greg: This is on Edwin Booth and The Player's Club. South of Gramercy Park. It's the story of this world famous actor of the late 19th century who's brother just happened to be John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Abraham Lincoln. In the late 1880s he opened this social club, basically, for actors because actors were not respected in that period of time, but he was so he basically sort of endowed his own esteem into this club by inviting other sort of famous men. It was a men's club until 1989.
Asad: Isn't everything, honestly. Isn't everything a men's club? Let's just go ahead and say it.
Greg: It is, definitely. But by the 1989 they had women in it. Anyway, it was like Mark Twain rubbing shoulders with actors of the day. You also had great designers and just patrons of the arts. It's the story of his life and that building in particular. The best part is we actually got a private tour of the building and got to see the room where Edwin Booth died, which is perfectly preserved. They just locked the door.
Zoe: How did he die?
Greg: It was just old age.
Zoe: Oh, nothing dramatic. Oh whatever.
Greg: No, no no no.
Asad: Zoe's disappointed.
Zoe: I am. I'm honestly disappointed.
Greg: No, because he was a traveling actor and traveling actors in the 1880s, you don't have limousines back then to go across the country. He was just weary, so he expired on the third floor of this particular building. It's exactly preserved, including on the shelf is a skull that he used for Hamlet.
Zoe: That's dark.
Greg: Oh you want darker? How about this? The skull is of a man that Edwin Booth met in jail who was on his way to the gallows to die.
Asad: Did he bequeath his skull to Edwin?
Greg: He bequeathed his skull to Edwin and he used it in frequent, many many frequent performers. Apparently, I was told, there were even two backup skulls from other people who had donated their own skull to Edwin.
Zoe: Oh my goodness.
Asad: Who are these friends who are like, you know, I just have this abiding affection for you and I want to give you my skull.
Greg: It's like taking fanship to the ultimate extreme. Taylor Swift, take my bones when I die.
Asad: I'm sure there are plenty of those people. So let's backtrack a little bit. We have a standard question that we like to ask folks that we have in the studio and I'm curious to hear your answer. I think this will be good. When you're at a cocktail party, how do you describe what you do?
Greg: That's a really good question because I've had to face that in the past few months because I had a day job in the corporate world that I got out of. I'm literally just a podcaster now, but when you say podcaster, people are like, "You make money doing that? What?" Or else it's like, "Oh are you a comedian?" There's a few sort of stereotypes about podcasts. Essentially I kind of go about it the other way, as sort of a historian researcher. If I am at a said cocktail party with a cocktail and I say that then they'll say, "Oh what kind of history?" Then it opens up new avenues of conversation.
Asad: What do you say when they say, "What kind of history?"
Greg: Then I'll say New York City history is my focus but American history is my sort of general interest. If we go even further down that rabbit hole, then I'll regale them with stories about the Revolutionary War which is my personal pet historical era, pretty much. By that point, if they're still with me at a cocktail party, then I know that they're like nerds like myself. Exactly.
Asad: Well what a time to be in New York City and to be a fan of American history and New York City history than the day after ... We're recording this the day after both Hillary Clinton and President-elect Donald Trump had their parties. There are lots of facial expressions happening in the studio right now. Lots of facial expressions. Both of them had their mass gatherings here in New York and I think that's the first time that's happened in 70 years.
Greg: Oh yeah because back in the day, New York had a lot more pull in national politics. It still does, obviously, but I mean it was a lot more centered here. It would almost be sort of a second DC, especially in the late 19th century. As a result, a lot of politicians from New York often ran for president or at least were super connected. A lot of these types of conventions and after-election rallies would be here in New York. In fact, one hundred years ago this week, there was another election. It was Republican Charles Evans Hughes vs. Woodrow Wilson. Woodrow Wilson got re-elected but Hughes was a New Yorker and so he had his election results party in Times Square at the Hotel Astor which is no longer there anymore. There's a long tradition of it, I have to say. Weirdly enough, there's a Bowery Boys episode about Donald Trump. Now I'm thinking do I need to take it down? Am I going to get thrown in jail?
Asad: No! Leave it up. That's what I say.
Greg: It was recorded five years ago. It was recorded when he was flirting with the idea of running for president. The reason I find his backstory interesting is mostly not because of him but because of his father. That's how they made their money was by building lower and middle-income housing in Queens and Brooklyn. If you'll go through a typical neighborhood in either of those boroughs, you will stumble into a Fred Trump house. I find it very interesting that that's how they made their money. Then so Donald decides that he just wants to build wealthy, high luxury hotels and casinos. You see the mental adjustments that he was making, I guess, his psyche.
Asad: We could call them acrobatics, we could call them gymnastics. Lots of tumbling, twirling.
Zoe: I already feel like I've learned so much just sitting here in these 10 minutes, between the skull and between the Hotel Astor, but one of the reasons we brought you in today is because we wanted to talk about a couple things in New York City history that people don't know, that you are often surprised to learn that they don't know about. We set this preliminary list. We said we're going to go over five.
Greg: Okay, sure.
Zoe: So let's do it. Let's start that off.
Greg: Let's start with a name on everyone's lips right now, Alexander Hamilton.
Zoe: Alexander Hamilton.
Asad: Who's that? What are you talking about?
Greg: The overexposed founding father, but there's many locations in New York City that you can visit that are key to his personality, key to his life and his history, including the fact that he's buried in Trinity Church. His old house, Hamilton Grange is up on Hamilton Heights. But what many people don't know is that after he died, Eliza, his wife, moved in with her son and their family in a tony little brownstone ... I think this was like in the 1830s ... On a street called St. Marks Place. It's funny because when you say St. Marks Place, what do you think? I think 1970s— right, punk. In fact, the brownstone for many, many years held the store Trash and Vaudeville which was a vintage clothing, wacky kind of clothing. It's just funny that that house has a connection to Alexander Hamilton, because they all lived there.
Zoe: That house just came on the market and it just sold I think, too. That's a little piece of history. It's such a different place on St. Marks than it was when the Hamiltons were there.
Asad: For sure and I think we could definitely call him our first punk, our punk founding father.
Greg: Although personally my favorite founding father who I always make mention to drop his name is Gouverneur Morris. I could even make this the second point, here-
Asad: Please. Why is he your favorite?
Greg: I find him a super intriguing, ubiquitous figure because he was a little bit rotund. He was maybe not the most attractive man in the world but was incredibly charming and was a bit of a Lothario. He wrote the words to, the opening line of The Constitution. He literally was there in the process of making The Constitution. They were a wealthy family, The Morrises and their estate was basically in the area of the South Bronx today.
What's interesting is we just recently did a three-part show podcast on the history of The Bronx. It was just so fascinating to tie all the craziness that happened in the South Bronx in the 60s and 70s, but then always on the back of my mind being like, "Oh this used to be the farmland of Gouverneur Morris and Lewis Morris." In fact, they're buried in the South Bronx and there's a church there that is a super weird place because it's all overgrown, they don't have a lot of money. Gouverneur Morris and his brother, Lewis Morris, who were both signers, are buried there.
The last thing I want to say about Gouverneur Morris is he had a wooden leg that was supposedly because he was having a romance with a woman and her husband came home. He jumped out the window and broke his leg. That's the sort of urban legend of how he got his wooden leg.
Asad: I feel like that's the kind of thing, that's the kind of story you tell when you want to up your Lothario cred. "I have a wooden leg because I jumped out of my lover's window." I call the voracity of that story into question.
Greg: I think it's one of those, it's just sort of like a time-honored urban legend and there's probably not anything backing it.
Asad: I mean, I love it.
Zoe: Yeah, very unique.
Greg: Number three, since we're sort of, maybe I'm in a presidential mood here.
Asad: Please, we probably all are for various reasons.
Greg: George Washington was actually inaugurated here in New York City at the area of Federal Hall. It was another building before that. He was inaugurated here and served for, I think it's a little over ... I can never remember. It's like over a year and a half. This was the capitol of the United States before it sort of moved around. Anytime George Washington sat down or slept somewhere, there's a plaque here in New York, like all over the place. Even St. Paul's Chapel where he worshiped, they have his pew and everything. What people may not know is that he actually did live in two different houses in lower Manhattan. One of them is right next to Bowling Green, the little park. The second one, the street's actually gone away, but it's at the approach of the Brooklyn bridge on the Manhattan side right near the water.
Zoe: Are the houses still there?
Greg: No. They're just plaques that are there today.
Zoe: They're actually just plaques.
Greg: Those are actually just plaques, but what's interesting and what also gets forgotten about that is he had slaves in those houses. There's a little-
Asad: Yeah I mean I haven't forgotten.
Greg: There's a really dark undercurrent to that that sort of gets ... I don't think it's even on the plaque but-
Asad: Because god forbid.
Greg: Yeah I mean well because the plaques were probably done like 40 years ago and no one thought that that would be interesting, even though to me it's the most interesting part of those things.
Zoe: Listen New York, it's time to revisit your plaques.
Greg: My fourth factoid also involves another president, a mediocre president name Chester A. Arthur. He was the Vice President of James Garfield. Garfield was shot and it took several months but he died, I think three months after he was shot in an attempted assassination. He died really quickly and they had to do a swearing-in for Chester A. Arthur here, who no one really loved. The place where he was sworn in is this little brownstone ... You know the area where all those Indian restaurants are in Murray Hill, like Curry in a Hurry and-
Greg: Yeah, it's some great food there.
Asad: It's a great spot.
Greg: One of those buildings, I can't remember the name of the restaurant. One of them is on the ground floor of the building where Chester A. Arthur was sworn in in 1881 and there's a plaque there, too, but you have to kind of look for it because it seems like a plain building, one of a million buildings in New York City, but it has this very unique connection to American history.
Asad: I do love that it has become, that space has become this hub of immigrant life in New York City. Also that that is a beautiful metaphor for just the trajectory of things in this country.
Greg: Nicely done.
Zoe: Yes, well said.
Greg: Then, finally I thought I'd go back to the very beginning by heading all the way up north in Manhattan to the alleged spot, because I mean, again it's one of these old legends where Peter Minuit, who was the Director General of New Amsterdam which was the precursor of New York, "bought" and I'm using quotes, bought-
Asad: The biggest air quotes.
Greg: Bought Manhattan from the Indians. Now, believe it or not you can go to the alleged spot where this happened. There's a rock in Inwood Hill Park which is this glorious treasure up at the very, very very very Northern end. It's the only patch of natural forest that exists in Manhattan, so like the trees that were there are related to the trees that were once there. There's a little rock there that marks the spot where an old tulip tree used to sit. That tulip tree, underneath the branches of the tulip tree, is where they "bought" New York from the Indians.
Zoe: Now is this the trade that happened with a couple glass beads?
Greg: Yes. What's interesting is that it doesn't appear that either party really knew the terms or conditions of the other.
Asad: You don't say.
Greg: Meaning that Peter Minuit and the Dutch thought that they were literally buying something. The Native people of the land were like, "Well we don't own it." It's almost like they were sort of leasing it in a way. That's the closest comparison, but as it turned out, the Europeans in their interpretation of that prevailed.
Asad: We're being so diplomatic. Look at us. Pats on the back all around.
Greg: You're right. All of these points have a new meaning today than they had twenty-four hours ago, don't they?
Asad: They do.
Zoe: So Greg, Bowery Boys put out their first book earlier this year. That is called Adventures in Old New York. We also hear you're working on another little project.
Greg: The new Bowery Boys spin off project has begun. There's two episodes out. It's called The First Stories of Inventions and Their Consequences.
Asad: I like a robust title. Who needs pith when you could go for robustness?
Greg: It's like you have The First in big letters, that's then the subtitle, but the reason the subtitle's important is it's not specifically about like, oh this is the invention of photography. But, in the second episode, it's about the first woman who was ever photographed, ever. It's from the perspective of the people who were immediately affected by those inventions. A future episode will be about the first person who was ever killed by a car. It's about all of the unintended effects and consequences of inventions.
Zoe: What informs these episodes? Where are you pulling the information from?
Greg: A lot of them are set in New York but this show is purposely designed to break out of New York when it needs to be because I want to start talking about other things outside of the borders. For the first two episodes, I also put a different kind of research into these than I'd have time to do on The Bowery Boys when you're producing two shows a week. These two shows I've been planning for months. The first episode is about the invention of the Ferris wheel, which ultimately is a very, very tragic story about its inventor.
Zoe: Is it like the Segway?
Greg: Oh no no no no.
Asad: I don't know that story.
Zoe: There's a rumor or maybe it is true that the guy who invented the Segway died on a Segway.
Asad: Oh god.
Greg: No, Ferris didn't die, well he didn't directly die because of his Ferris wheel. He didn't die on the Ferris wheel, but he had racked up so many debts because of it and he could never pay them back in the World's Fair of 1893 that kind of screwed him over. Then his health got really terrible, then his wife left him. It's like the strangest thing. Then he had all these lawsuits. It's like the unintended consequences of being the first is sometimes not a good thing, essentially. Weaving in and out of American history with whatever stories I find compelling. I don't want them all to be downers, either, so the next episode is going to be about the very first TV dinner. Which is a little bit more lighthearted, I suppose. Although really it's a story about how people moved away from their dining room tables to eating in front of the TV alone.
Asad: So we're making progress away from total downer to just like medium.
Zoe: Medium downer.
Greg: Slightly downer. But it's also sort of interesting because the TV dinner was invented, was a sort of evolution from the airline food industry had just started a couple years before, because of course there weren't that many airplanes. Actually the person who invented the TV dinner was a young woman in her 20s. It's kind of an interesting story, her story of how that and what this means as a symbol. It'll go in and out of New York. New York is definitely my wheelhouse, so many of the stories will be set in New York. This one about the first photograph of a woman, that photo was taken on a rooftop at Washington Square at the old first building of NYU.
Asad: I have a bit of a meta-question. I don't mean to get too meta today but, what is it about podcasting and audio journalism as a medium that is so enticing right now in this moment, in the culture overall and then to you, personally?
Greg: I think one thing that's quite appealing about a podcast vs. just like turning on the radio and listening to somebody, although it does happen on the radio too, is you develop a very personal relationship with the people on the other end because you're listening to them whenever you want to. You listen to your podcasts at these moments when you want to hear these voices. You tend to develop these relationships with listeners who are like, "You follow me on my commute everyday." Or like, "Every time I'm at the gym." Or, "I ran a marathon and I listened to four of your shows." Or whatever. Usually at these moments, we're there, you know they're either going from one place or the other or they're relaxing. They develop a relationship with you.
With The Bowery Boys, what we find is very interesting is there's sort of two layers. There's people who like New York. Well there's three layers, actually. There's people who like New York, there's people who like history, and then there's people who like us. There's certain people ... We get comparisons sometimes of like Car Talk because people will say, "Well actually I'm not really interested in history at all but I just enjoy hearing you two speak because it sounds like you're sitting at a bar talking and we're listening to a pleasant conversation." There's an immediacy with podcasting that is just not quite equatable in other mediums. Because now, there've been so many big shows and people are really pouring effort into podcasts now, I'll be interested in seeing how that relationship with the listeners keeps going. Now that there are more and more podcasts out there for people to listen to. Generally speaking, we've been doing this for over nine years which is insane.
Asad: Yeah that's amazing.
Greg: Back in 2007, I don't know where my mind was. How did we come up with this idea in 2007 when there were no models in which to do this? I guess, again going back to the Car Talk model and there were certainly a couple other things like that that we must've listened to and been like, "Oh we'll just be two guys talking about this thing." we weren't really sure that that was the best way to sell history, but we've definitely made a mark and people have definitely responded to it. Meanwhile, The First is actually just me, so it's a different kind of production model. It's a little bit more of this music and special effects and slightly more dramatic. It's almost radio drama because I bring in people. If I have a letter from somebody, I bring in an actor or another podcaster to-
Zoe: Master those dramatic readings.
Zoe: I don't know what that voice was. That was pathetic.
Asad: No I liked it.
Greg: Yeah maybe I'll have one for you next time. That'll be if you do Adele.
Asad: Oh my god, yes.
Zoe: I'll bring my best Adele voice.
Greg: Thank you, yes. Thank you.
Zoe: Well we like to wrap up our shows on this little segment called Thunder Round and it's called that because it's a little slower than the lightning round and it's also a recurring joke that we have to explain it every single time, right.
Asad: Right, yeah and we do.
Zoe: A little slower than a lightning round. The first question there this time around is what is your favorite place in New York City?
Greg: Oh gosh, geez.
Asad: Starting with the hard-hitting questions.
Greg: My favorite place. I guess a place that I gravitate towards. I have to probably say, and this is like a very broad answer, I apologize. I love walking along the waterfront from the Lower East Side, from like Corlear's Hook ... Basically from where the Williamsburg Bridge is, just wandering all the way down to the tip of the Island.
Zoe: Very historic area.
Greg: Yeah there's lots of history but then there's lots of ... It's shielded so if it's raining. You also get to see all of the bridges. There's just so much movement and activities and you're going through. It's just weird. It's not the kind of thing I would necessarily tell a tourist to do, because if they want to do that kind of thing, I would have them walk up the Hudson side because it's a little bit more breathtaking.
Asad: Right, Riverside Park is so dramatic and beautiful.
Greg: This is just, I lived in the Lower East Side for 10 years. That's my soft spot. I go back there sometimes.
Asad: I love that answer. I'm going to have to do that walk at some point, too.
Zoe: Yeah me, too.
Asad: I don't think I've done it.
Greg: It works especially if it's like around like seven o'clock at night and all the lights are on, it's 60 degrees, you have a light sweater on, there's a slight breeze off of the fetid East River.
Zoe: That's the most romantic way I've ever heard anything around the East River described.
Asad: Yeah the word fetid has never sounded more alluring than it did just now. So obviously we all love New York here, but is there a global city that you think rivals New York or where you would be willing to relocate?
Greg: I do have to say when I researched this Ferris wheel show, I really did like Chicago. I hadn't been there forever. I thought Chicago's fantastic. Now, that's a good question. I might have a few years ago said San Francisco but not any longer.
Asad: But things have changed.
Greg: I actually had a huge crush on Berlin for like four or five years. I went I think like once a year and people were like, "There are other cities in Europe." I was like, it just had the right amount of history and culture but there was also this weird almost this dull edge of sadness behind it, which was very appealing to me at the time. I think it's a very beautiful city and also because this was like the late 90s when I started going. They were still taking down the wall in some places. It was a forest of construction cranes because a lot of things were just being built. I haven't been back in many years. I'm sure I wouldn't even recognize it. That was a city that's always been-
Asad: I've never been. I really want to go, though.
Zoe: Yeah, no nor have I.
Greg: It's pretty amazing.
Zoe: As Asad just mentioned, we all of course love New York City. Do you have a favorite movie that takes place in our fair city?
Greg: After Hours by Martin Scorsese. I can't remember the year-
Asad: That's a good one.
Zoe: I haven't seen it.
Greg: I can't remember the year. 1980, 1981, 1982, one of those years. It is set in SoHo, SoHo in the early 80s, if you can picture that. A little bit desolate and war-torn but very mysterious. It's about one night. It's about a guy who goes down there and ends up getting caught up in this wild fantasia where he meets various people. Rosanna Arquette is in it, Teri Garr is in it. It's just weird and it's also ... Martin Scorsese has a lot of films set in New York City. This one is so unconventional, very atypical of the rest of his work. I like that as one of my favorites. There's a million. There's a movie called The Naked City from the 1950s. It was a black and white. It was the first film where large-scale on-location sets were done. While it's not perhaps the best film noir ever, there's one— a whole shootout on the Williamsburg Bridge with the guy climbing the wires.
Greg: It's the bridge. It's not in studio. It's great.
Zoe: He wouldn't be able to do that these days, but that sounds great.
Greg: Probably not.
Asad: Those are two good ones. I haven't seen either so now I have some homework.
Greg: Oh yeah I think After Hours, you'll like that it's fun.
Zoe: Yeah I need something to watch tonight so hopefully it's on Netflix.
Asad: Then I have one other question for you. This is kind of a weird one but do you have a favorite anachronism about New York that appears in a movie?
Greg: An anachronism.
Zoe: We thought you would be the right person to answer this question.
Greg: As I give it some more thought, Modern Family, they just went to New York their season finale.
Zoe: Air quotes on New York there.
Greg: Yeah because it was the weirdest mixture of like, wait all of those things aren't together. They're not in that space together. I guess, oh here's a fun one. Ghostbusters 2.
Asad: Oh yes. The recent one.
Greg: Well no actually the sequel-
Asad: Oh no Ghostbusters 2. Right, god I forgot about that.
Greg: I know, can you believe there was a sequel right. There's a really interesting but completely far-fetched scene where they have to be kind of lowered into the subway, into the sewer. There's goo, it's like ectoplasmic goo. He gets lowered and there's a sign that says, "Beaches Pneumatic Tube 1870." This was New York's very first subway that was blown by pneumatic ... It was an air, it was a wind tunnel and they basically blew the car back and forth.
Zoe: That's amazing.
Greg: But of course that scene was set in the Upper East Side and that was only a block long and it was down by City Hall. It was like, both that didn't happen and also like, wow, someone did do their research though on this stuff.
Asad: Right, they just didn't quite finish their research.
Greg: They just took broad strokes. They read about it in a book and said, "We'll just move it up here on the Upper East Side."
Zoe: They got halfway there. Maybe like a C- for effort.
Greg: I would say, yeah.
Asad: Solid C-.
Greg: A solid C-.
Asad: This is a weird thing but I grew up in New York City in part, in Harlem and took the 9 a lot as a kid. My weird thing is when trains that no longer run are featured in modern-day movies like, "Yeah I gotta get on the 9 on my way to such and such." It's like the movie takes place in the present day and you're like, "The 9 doesn't run anymore." It's such a snobby New York thing to be concerned about but it's real.
Greg: Movies always get it wrong and it's so easy to get right that I don't understand.
Asad: Get it together, filmmakers.
Greg: Please. Exactly. Snap.
Asad: Well thank you so much for coming in and regaling us. This was really great.
Zoe: Yes thank you, Greg.
Greg: This has been a pleasure, especially you know, it's taken our minds off of things for a few minutes I hope.
Asad: It did.
Zoe: It did.
Asad: So if folks want to find more of you and your work, where can they do that?
Greg: You can go to boweryboyshistory.com which is the blog for our podcast. If you want to listen to either The Bowery Boys or The First, you can find that at iTunes, Stitcher, basically anywhere you can listen to podcasts. Except for Spotify but we're working on that. Everywhere else though you can get podcasts, you can find those. We have like a trillion shows in The Bowery Boys feed, including that show on Donald Trump if anyone's interested.
Zoe: Dig through the archives, y'all. It's worth it.
Asad: Thanks again, we really appreciate it. This was awesome.
Greg: No, thank you.
Zoe: Thank you.
Asad: That was the final episode of this season of The Curbed Appeal. Thank you for listening.
Zoe: Thank you.
Asad: You may have noticed that one voice has gone unheard for the last few episodes. That is our beloved Jeremiah Budin who left Curbed after four years to try something new.
Zoe: We're very happy for him. If you want to catch up with us while we are in off-season, find us at The Curbed Appeal on Twitter, and you can always go back and re-listen to our archives at curbed.com.
Asad: And if this is the first episode you've listened to, please do subscribe in iTunes to get all of the previous episodes that we've recorded. You can also find us in the podcast section of the Spotify app and on SoundCloud at Curbed Radio.
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